Thursday, December 31, 2015

A Slow Adjustment

Dear Friends and Family,

I have taken to trying to journal a bit at a time and them post it to you. This, of course, not mean it will be any more interesting than before, but it does help this aging mind keep track of the days' activities.

 

 

Sunday, 27 December

A very gray, very rainy day today. I headed off on my walk, partially in pursuit of a proper litter box. The one our old landlord, Alfred, had given us, along with Kira the cat, was a converted cardboard box. The cat was not pleased with the arrangement and demonstrated her displeasure by "pooping" in the corner of the living room. Point taken! Finding nary a litter box in PV, even at the vet (Most cats are outdoors, so it makes a kind of sense), I headed out to a larger store, Mega. Just as I reached Mega, about a mile and a half, the skies opened up and even after thoroughly searching for a litter box at Mega, it was still pouring. Since I was already a mile and a half north, I thought next stop: Walmart. I scrambled across the highway and was shortly onboard a city bus; the best 7 1/2 peso adventure ride in the area. I reached Walmart, pretty much drenched as it was a good run from the bus stop to the store. In fact, I had to run along the highway for a bit as there was not place to cross the swamps that had formed up against the curbs. Still no little box. However, in a brief moment of creative clarity (desperation?), I thought about just a standard tub in housewares. Voila! A new litter box. So, feeling somewhat triumphant, I caught a cab back home

Rain continued, so Polley and I stayed in the remainder of the morning, reading. About noon, we ventured down to La Fuente. The previous 4 days the place had been dead and we even feared that it was not going to survive. Sunday, it was packed and we had to retreat to a sidewalk table, as there were none available in the actual restaurant. It was clear that because it was not sunny and warm, but rather wet and rainy, tourists had strayed away from the beach and come further into town. The place was so busy, in fact, and the staff so minimal that I had to bus a couple of tables and seat a family and take their drink orders. Ah, the price for being a regular! We must have sat for nearly an hour, satisfactorily sipping our margaritas (we did manage to get those), before we got some actual lunch. As we always do, we ask about the soup of the day. Previously it had been cream of spinach one day and cream of carrot the other two. Surprise, surprise, today it was cream of spinach and carrot! Surprisingly (or not, as their soups always excellent), it was very good. After working our way through lunch, it was siesta time and a bit more reading before heading down to Roberto's for sunset, which we never actually saw! The Malécon was packed. Families, skateboarders, bicyclists, musicians, the whole town seemed to be gathered before us. We were soon joined by a new friend, Russ, from Vancouver, BC. We have seen him and his wife (Yvonne) regularly for the last couple of years, but have never really spoken until right at the end of last season. He was on his own last night, accompanied by his little dog, and ask to join us. A very interesting fellow. A retired tugboat operator (from a family business of more than a 100 years), Russ and Yvonne have been coming to PV for the last 20 years and own a condo up the hill. Despite the gray skies, it was a very nice evening and we talked until it was clear that the little dog had had enough (of us?). So Russ headed one way and we headed up the hill. We comforted ourselves with some wine and a nice bowl of chicken chowder that I had made earlier in the week. Despite the weather and with a suitable litter box in place, we turned in, Polley, Kira and me!

The next couple of days continued rather cool and cloudy. Each day it was up with plans for the beach, only to have the cloud cover dampen out enthusiasm for the trek. So life remained simple and very routine. With the holidays, there are many Mexican families in town. Hotels are full and the nightlife is active (a polite term for LOUD!). The entertainers are out in force. This fellow plays the Angel Gabriel (I would guess) and it is a feat of engineering, as he hovers a foot or two above the ground

Probably the most successful entrepreneur is a fellow who climbs into his bandito outfit each night and becomes a living photo-op for tourists.

Amazing the creativity that comes with a high unemployment level. I have know idea how much he brings in a night, but he seems to be a very busy man.

Yesterday, the sun broke through and the long-awaited journey to the sea was realized. We visited out old haunt, Langosta Loca and I caught a few rays of sun. We reconnected with our waiter-friend Ricardo and swore that we would be more visible this year. Then it was back to Roberto's for an actual sunset.

They have been few and far between so far. More to come I am sure!

 

Another Year in PV

One and all, family and Friends,

It is hard to believe that Polley and I find ourselves in Puerto Vallarta for year number 8! I look back and remember the first year meeting a woman who claimed she and her husband had been coming to PV for 25 years. I could not fathom the idea of coming to the same place year after year after year. But here we are, again!

As most of you know, December was a very hard month weather-wise. After such hard, relentless rain, you really come to appreciate drizzle. Sunshine even more. Tuesday, 22 December, we finally got away. It took a bit of doing as our flight was delayed an hour and a half. My sister-in-law warned me, but I had already booked the flight. Avoid San Francisco. It can often get fogged in and air traffic gets backedup. That is exactly what happened to us. About 8:30, we left Portland. There was a terrific tailwind (El Niño is not all bad) and we were down to SFO in an hour and a half. However, we then had to hold for another 20 minutes or so as things were still backedup. We arrived about 10 and they did manage to turn the unload and reload the plane very quickly and by 11 or so we were on our way south. However, by the time we cleared Passport Control and Customs, it was 5:45, nearly two hours laters than scheduled. WE caught a cab and made it to our place by 6:15 or so. My brother and his wife had stayed in the house for November and 10 days of December, so we had the keys. However, our agent was there and soon we were feeling like we were home.

So, the last few days have been settling in. Those of you who have followed this blog previously know the routine. Several days of shopping. Taking in the old cat from up the hill. Our old landlord was quick to see if we wanted company at our place. So, having hardly unpacked (actually, I don't think Polley is done yet), we put chicken wire on the windows, bought catfood and set up a litter box and Kira was back with us. It will be nice to have her, but when we return in April (after taxes and a brief visit home) we are thinking of bringing our cat, Quirk (sadly we are down to one cat as we had to put Caspar down in mid-December), down south with us. He is an indoor cat who needs to get out more!

So the rhythms of life are beginning to be set. We did begin our stay with some sad news. When we arrived for lunch on the second day here, we discovered that José, our very favorit waiter, was not around as his father had passed away. Then later, we wandered down to the Malécon to Roberto's. There we were shocked to find that another delightful waiter, Freddy, had been hit by a car and killed in July. He was only 20! Our visit was not getting off on a positive note. That is what comes of an ongoing relationship with a place. Things come and things go, people come into your life and go out. It begins to make you realize that you have only so many entrances life and then, one day, a final exit as well.

But, as for now, we are here, and the sun shines.

Wer enjoyed the rare Christmas full moon. Had a lovely Christmas dinner at Vitea and have hooked up with some friends from years past. Life is good here, we are warm (and dry) and will continue to share with you our days as they too come and go. Love to all. Merry Christmas and a most Happy New Year.

 

Saturday, May 30, 2015

The Last Full Day

Dear Friends and Family,

Perhaps the title should be the last "complete" day, as we don't anticipate that it will be particularly full. As it has been a while since my last communication, it may suggest that little of note has happened. That is true. In fact, I thought this photo best captured our lives for the last several weeks

Kira has been our role model. Unfortunately it all comes to an end tomorrow, both for her, as we return her to her former home, as well as for us, to the airport about 1:30 Sunday afternoon and back in Portland about 9 that night.

It has been a good stay in our new place. We feel so lucky to have it. We did learn a bit more about the place. A few days ago, a Mexican man was leading a couple on a private tour and they stopped in front of our place and he began to tell them about the house. So, I seized the opportunity and went out to ask the fellow if he could share the infor with Polley and myself as well. Well, he did. He came in and told us this was known as the "Treasure House," because legend has it that a treasure was buried beneath the place. He also revealed that the place was not originally a house at all, but, in fact, was a barn in which the kept the donkeys and other animals. The burros were taken down Guerrero Street to the sea where they were used to carry the unloaded fish and other supplies that were brought in. Once we learned this, and looked at the place with this new information, we could see it as a barn

The shape of the building, the very high barn-like rafters and open, tile roof and the three large double doors necessary to bring animals in and out

A barn indeed. Fascinating!

The weather here has turned very warm in the last week to 10 days. We have decided, as we did when we stayed in PV in the fall, that, ideally, you don't want to arrive here much before November 15th and you don't want to remain here much after May 15th. It just become sticky and humid before and after those dates. It hit 90 yesterday and the thunderstorm season looks to be beginning not long after we leave. Perfect timing.

Other than that, we have been enjoying some sun in our back courtyard (although that is getting pretty hot as well), having some nice lunches out and getting in a few dramatic sunsets. May does seem to be a good month for those as most of the clouds are gone in the evening and there is just this intense, big round ball of sun

The crowds are gone and often as we sit at Roberto's on the Malécon, we are the only two in the restaurant.

So, that has been our daily life. Not complaints, but from our sparse communications, it has been "nothing to write home about!" So, as we begine to sweep out the barn and pack up, we wish all the best to you and look forward to our 6 months (can you believe it!) in Portland (and Bend, Will and Natacha) and the chance to be with friends and family. See you all soon.

 

Sunday, May 17, 2015

Two Weeks and Counting

Dear Family and Friends,

It is two weeks today that we turn our minds and our luggage toward home and, like always, we begin to feel ready. The weather here is warming up, about 89 yesterday and the nights are not cooling off a great deal, which compromises sleeping. So, I think May is the latest you want to be in PV.

This week I was struck with the feeling of loss. When you come back to a place year after year (8 years for us now), you begin to recognize the locals, or if not locals, those that seem to visit here about the same time you do. You don't know them by name (at least, not usually), but you acknowledge one another as you pass them each morning, about the same time, on the Malécon or in the stores or at the cafes. It is usually no more than a tip of the head, or a wave of the hand. These last 6 weeks I was aware that a couple of these folks were missing. Further investigation discovered that in each case they had died. While not knowing them, I sincerely felt a sense of loss, that PV would not, for me, be quite the same.

I didn't even know the name of the one fellow, but he and I walked about the same time and would see each other out at the point at the end of Malécon. I was usually enjoying a cup of store-bought frijoles while this fellow had stopped at the local convenience store and bought a Tecate beer. We laughed at our separate indulgences.

The other fellow we did have a speaking relationship with. His name was Norm. We was rail-thin, darkly tanned and was clearly the living embodiment of the "Vietnam Vet." We learned that he lived out at the Marina, but came into town each day, either in his pickup or on the back of his Harley. He then proceeded to hold down a bar stool for nearly the remainder of the day, sipping on a cold Pacifico. When I inquired about his missing and they told me he had died, the bar had put up a memorial to Norm, with his picture and a small plaque supplied by the Veterans Assocication. Obviously others missed Norm as well.

The past week has been pretty low-keyed. We managed to maintain our regular routine. Trying to savor the last few weeks to Paradise. With the warmer days, the sunsets on the Malécon were becoming quite stunning.

I continued my fascination with silhouettes against the bright background. I managed to capture this bandito as he awaited another photo-op and another 5 or 10 pesos

Actually, the Malécon was quite active with Mexicans this week. The Gringo population continues to dwindle down to a precious few, but the food carts seem to be thriving. I caught this table of sweets last night

Speaking of food, when we have lunch each day at La Fuente, I have always commented on the number of people who, faced with a plethora of Mexican delicacies, end up having a "Club Sandwich." So, this week, in an effort to better understand my fellow travelers (and to try and work my way through the entire menu), I had one as well.

I begrudgingly admit is was very good! Of course, with the fries, it ended up as two meals, but I could see its attraction.

The Malécon also provided me with this Pelican airforce passing over Roberto's just before sundown

All in all, a very nice week. Just two more to go and we will do our best to savor each moment, but it is easy to take this life, and these sunsets, for granted

 

Monday, May 11, 2015

Meanderings along the Malécon

Dear Friends and Family,

Not much new to report. That is the way we like it. However, we have not been hermits, exactly. So, I thought it might be fun to just throw together a collection of a few impressions that have ended up in my camera the last few nights. They are not particularly special, but as we now move inside of 3 weeks until we return to Oregon, they may just be a bit more treasured as the time slips away. It seems a long time until December when we will visit them again.

Yesterday, of course, was Mothers' Day. It is celebrated here in PV as well. Actually, as you see the displays in the various small grocery stores, the choices appear to reworked Valentine's Day offerings. I did manage to shine for a few minutes by returning from my morning walk with a dozen roses.

I do hope you aren't so blinded by my vision of lovliness to not notice the vase. The woman who owns the place seems to be fascinated by laboratory gadgets. With the long-stem roses, I was forced to reach a high shelf for this huge beaker. It was only after filling it with water that I discovered it was the tomb for former resident of the place

So, Polley got two gifts for the day.

We have been getting down to the Malécon pretty regularly for sunset. We just sit quietly and watch the world pass by. With the exception of Saturday and Sundays, it is very quiet. We are often the only table in the place - tough time to be a waiter in PV right now - and watch the Mexicans drift up and down the oceanside walk way. Occasionally, there is a change in the rhythm. As when these cute little girls came dashing along, posed and then shot off to the next thing

They had there 15 seconds of fame with the crowd and then vanished.

Another moment, as I was sauntering over to capture another dramatic sunset, I caught this little queen lording over her plate for French fries

You could use of up endless computer chips trying to capture all the cute kids in Mexico.

And while we are on the subject of sunsets, there have been some good ones lately. The other night I strolled a bit north from our regular location at Restaurante Roberto's. I had forgotten the variety of sculptures that are up that direction. There is this wonderful Dolphin fountain

It has been a bit tempermental as some days it is closed down and others it is going full tilt. The other night was a bit of good luck

it was not only bubbling, but changing color as well

From there I drifted a bit further to the famous "Arcos" of PV.

There is an amphitheatre there as you can see and there is a show there nearly every night. It is a major gathering spot for crowds as the sun begins to leave us for another day.

Lastly, as I was on my walk this morning, there was another strong impression, nearly opposite of the dramatic sunsets. As I came down the south end of the Malécon, moving quickly past a number of beachside cafes that shades the beach in the early morning hours from the sun. Suddenly, I came around a corner and the sun poured down a side street in the shockingly clear air of morning , I was confronted with the pier.

I pass it nearly everyday, but somehow it was particularly striking this morning. It implored me to capture it -- I did.

It seems had to believe that after 8 years of travel to this town there are still moments to preserve. These were a few in the last few days. I will continue to keep my eyes peeled.

 

 

Wednesday, May 6, 2015

One Step Forward, Two Steps Back, Bathroom!

Dear Friends and Family,

It has been far too long, I realize. I can only say that food poisoning will set you back a bit. It is even more embarassing when you poison your self! Yes, in the manner of my good friend, Jeff Gauthier, I selected enticing comestibles from the rear of the refrigerator. Not good! Friday night we got home from some sunset time on the Malécon and she decided she was tired and not hungry. So, with her tucked in, I decided to ignore the delicious, not to mention safe, chicken risotto I had made. No, save that for the two of us. I'll take a more improvisational approach to dining. So, a couple of eggs, some left over Cesar dressing (there when we moved into the place a month ago), a little week old salsa and an old tortilla. What could be better? Wrong. I awoke in the middle of the night very sick and it would be all of Saturday and Sunday in bed, a little norishment on Monday, before I emerged from mausoleum on Tuesday with some renewed strength. I am back, and, perhaps, a bit wiser.

Outside of a certain discomfort of the digestion tract, life continues pleasantly uneventful. The town has become very quiet. Some restaurants are restricting hours, it is a nervous time for workers as they are unsure what layoffs there might be. Hopefully, they have squirreled away some pesos for the slow season. It is actually a little surprising that it is so quiet, as the weather has been lovely. This may be an odd year as we have never been down here this late, but so far the days are mid-80s, with little or no humidity and very comfortable nights. It has seemed ideal to us.

Life in the new house continues to be enjoyable. It is a bit noisey during the day and in the early to mid-evening. But as I have said before, you truly feel you are in a Mexican neighborhood. People regularly greet us as we come down the hill. Of course, despite the new location, we have been trekking down the same path for the last 8 years. We do miss some of the people we got to know further up the hill as we seldom venture up that way any more. Sort of surprising considering Polley's attachment to the stray cats up there for so many years. Apparently, our current single live-in cat is enough. She also seems to be comfortable in the place and has stopped whinning and pining for the fields.

We have made it down, on a nearly nightly basis to the Malécon for a drink and a sunset. Sometimes two drinks, but always just the one sunset. Last night, rather than our usual spot, as it was closed for Cinco de Mayo (a seemingly "non event" in PV), we went further south to see our old friends at Langosta Loca. While the rest of the town has been quiet, it was a madhouse. Drunken Mexicans, screaming, sand-covered children and perhaps the world's record for the longest string of absolutely terrible musicians. It was, however, a dramatic sunset.

Fishermen were finishing up for the day and just bathing in the last rays of light.

I caught this through the palm fronds of a nearby palapa

While moving out to freeze these two pelicans in mid-flight and catching the sun and its reflection.

However, while the Mother Nature was providing a romantic backdrop, the cacophony of sounds in the restaurant soon drove us to the sanctuary of our home. We did get this final glimpse of the night sky as we ambled back up north to our usual haunts. Despite so much time in this place, it still holds a certain enchantment that keeps luring us back.

 

 

Thursday, April 30, 2015

Global Weirding in PV as Well

Dear Family and Friends,

Life must be picking up as I am writing you a bit more frequently. Actually, if it is picking up, it is very subtle. We have pretty much settled into a routine and seem to have settled into our new house as well. I always get a sense of that when I can move about the place freely, in the dark, and also know where all the light switches are, in the dark.

The weather here continued to be very pleasant. which is a bit of a surprise. Nearly everyone we know makes a point of getting out of here by April 1st, or the 15th at the latest. Having never been down here this late, we just naturally assumed that heat and humidity would be the culprit driving all away. At least this year, it has been very comfortable and even a bit disappointing in terms of sunshine. There have lots of clouds and some mornings we have hardly seen the sun at all. I think the purchase of our lounge chairs was a kind of meteorlogical curse! However, sitting in the courtyard in the direct sunlight, is pretty punishing, some we are not really complaining.

Our live-in cat has been enjoying the weather. While she still has periods of claustrophobia, having always had the run of her place, she too has seemed to settle in. We secured the two front windows to our place with chicken wire and it is now a favorite place of hers to relax and keep an eye on the neighborhood

You might also notice our lovely orchids. I would like to take credit, but they were blooming when we arrived.

Each evening has taken us down to the Malécon for some refreshment and, if we are lucky, a sunset. Last night was particularly good and made even more striking by the presence of the pirate ship, quite close to shore.


The company that runs it now seems to have added a "Sunset Cruise." Each evening it appears about 30 minutes before sunset and then slowly move out toward the horizon as the sun goes down. Last night was a great photo-op.

Dramatic clouds, but also a nice clear horizon with just a thin bank of clouds to provide a bit of definition.

Sitting for 90 minutes or so each evening is our bit of entertainment. The crowds, which are thin (the crowds are thin, not necessarily the individuals) and, at this time of year, nearly all Mexican. As we sit at Roberto's, we are often the only Gringos in the place. One of the fun things to watch for, are the young Mexican entrepreneurs who find new ways to make a peso. The latest idea is this pair of "banditos." They have dressed themselves to match a statue that sits in a tourist shop.

They have done quite a good job of matching the finish on the stationary hombre. They have been very successful providing photo opportunities for the passing tourists. Capitalism is alive and well here in PV

So, that is the latest. Not a lot new, but we are thoroughly enjoying ourselves and now are looking forward to our first true Mexican Cinco de Mayo. Coming soon.

 

Sunday, April 26, 2015

Drifting Towards May

Dear Friends and Family,

The silence that has eminated from PV is just our quietly doing our thing. Life here has been quite uneventful. The last of our regular buddies have headed north. We had a nice dinner with John and Mollie, friends from Beaverton last Monday. They packed up their car on Thrusday and headed for the border.

Since then we have been on a pretty regular routine. I get my 4-5 miles in every morning, usually trying to combine it with some practical errand: groceries, cat food, more wine! We have also been enjoying a half hour to 45 minutes in our new lounge chairs. Strong sun shines in the back patio beginning about 10:30 in the morning. After that we make sure that we get in our prescribed medication: "A Margarita a Day, keeps the Mexican doctor away!" We have become such regulars at our local haunt, La Fuente del Puente, that when Polley checks on the "sopa del dia," the soup of the day, they just ask her what she might fancy, and make it up to order.

Afternoons are for siesta and a bit of reading. Lately, we have given ourselves a break by tuning into CNN for an hour or so, feeling some obligation to check on the world. However, after three consecutive nights of protests in Baltimore, we decided the necessity to "check in" was a little less important.

Friday, we revisited an old favorite, El Patio de mi Casa. It is a bar/pizza place just down the hill. After years of being nearly nightly visitors to El Patio, we had a less than satisfactory meal there in February and had not been back since. Funny how quickly a bad experience, despite how often you previously visited, can turn you off. We so love the setting and the people there, that we decided to give it another go. I am pleased to report that the food was once again, good. The added plus this time was a visit from a cat who jumped down from an apartment above and settled in to a nearby planter.

While he is looking quite alert in this photo, a few minutes later he was completely flaked out.

Speaking of cats, our house sitter, Sam, sent us a wonderful picture of our own Quirk.

Apparently within minutes of an Amazon delivery, he had taken possession of the box!

I guess I will continue with the cat theme, if you will indulge me for a moment longer. Each morning on myu walk, I cut through the little park that is on the island that divides the Rio Cuale, just below our place. There must be in excess of 100 cats on the island. I caught a number of them appreciating a work of art the other morning

Actually, I think they were impatiently waiting for a blond-haired lady, who regularly feed them, to arrive.

Lastly, we have taken to ending most evenings down on the Malécon for a couple of beers, some serious people watching (mostly Mexicans as there are very few of us Gringos left), and, of course a sunset or two (limit one per night). The weather lately as been a little strange, with a good number of cloudy evenings. However, a few nights ago, I did get this dramatic puesta del sol\

That is the "Pirate Boat" silhouetted to the right. And last night, I caught a large cruiseship head toward the sun as it began its descent

So, little that is really different, but, somehow, we are happy with the patterns of our daily lives. I promise more soon, but I am not sure I can guaranteed much variety. All, take care.

 

Monday, April 20, 2015

Milestones and Mexicans!

Dear Friends and Family,

Life continues to slide along here in the land of the sun. There have been some events this week. The big one was our trip to Walmart. We had decided that with these nice courtyards and the morning sun, that we might pursue some lounge chairs for the back. There was not thing included with the house, so we decided to make our contribution to a place that provides nearly everything else. Walmart is always an adventure. Despite that endless Gringos, both from in town and fresh off the cruise ships, stop in there, there is no staff that seems to speak English. Of course, I always enjoy a challenge, but in this case it became a bit more complex than my "taxi/hotel/restaurant" Spanish as capable of. We found the lounge chairs, but as they are molded plastic and unwilling to conform to a cab, getting them delivered was the rub.

 

Not the most elegant of chairs, but they will do the job. And yes, by learning a new verb, "entregar - to deliver," I managed to get the chair to our place, free! Yes, Walmart does deliver and deliver they did about 2 pm yesterday (Sunday even). So now we anxiously await a few annoying clouds to clear and try them out.

Sunday evening we took our friend and waiter from La Fuente, José Flores and his wife Esperanza, to dinner at our favorite, fancier restaurant, Vitea. Each year we try to treat themn to a dinner at some place they might not ordinarily go. Vitea is a good choice because they have an excellent wait-staff and since José is a very good waiter, you don't want to take him some place where the help is sloppy. We have done that before. It was a lovely evening, although as always a bit of a chore, as Esperanza has not English. But we always manage to have a good time. Then yesterday, with our new accommodations, we invited them, after José got off work, to join us at our place for a beer. They brought along their daughter and her very new (4 months) granddaughter.

This time I was sharp enough to remember to take a photo. A lovely family and very devoted grandparents.

They enjoyed the house and I finally was able to get the cat off the bed so we could take a picture of the other major room in our new place: the bedroom

It is huge, nearly as big as other place was in total

Boy, are we becoming spoiled. Polley and I continue to pinch ourselves at the good luck in finding such a place, in an ideal location, at a price we can afford. What can be better.

So, as we begin the 3rd week of our stay, we are truly settled in and plan to spend a good deal of time in those chairs, in the sun. We have dinner with John and Mollie, friends from Beaverton tonight. They leave for home on Thursday and from there on out we will be on our own. The last of the people we know will be gone. Even now, the town is very quiet. Very few Gringos wander the Malécon, restaurants are beginning to close down. The "Season" is definitely over. THE PLACE IS OURS!

One last note. It was exactly 3 years ago today that the University honored myself along with colleagues from the College of Arts and Sciences, Judith Montgomery, Jill Hoddick and Richard Rutherford in a retirement ceremony. That day my brother gave me a Nike sports band, to officially record my walks. I am an avid walker. Today, on the anniversary of retirement, I recorded my 1000th walk. I captured it on the phone.

Thanks Dave, for keeping me young(er). More later